OCP Forums
OCP-related Discussions => Correct (?) Answers to Bidding Problems => Topic started by: FeaxSA on May 28, 2018, 06:28:36 AM
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1 !C - (P) - 1NT[ !S]-(2 !S)
Pass = Gamma in !S
Double = Alpha in !H
2NT = HOC
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Looks right to me...
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How we pushined the ops (playing 2 !S X) .... or with that scenario.... just we cant ?
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Spiros, you have an auction of 1 !C-(p)-1NT( !S positive)-(2 !S). Is there a typo there?
If not, then how many times do you expect opponents to overcall a spade positive with a natural 2 !S? And if 2 !S is NOT natural, then opponents aren't going to play there whatever you do...? ???
But you are right, OCP makes it very difficult to penalise opponents at a low level. I've had this argument with Oliver many times on these forums. An opponent who knows the system should interfere whenever possible to take the maximum amount of bidding room right up to the level at which they know that they can't easily be penalised.
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IMO, it is highly unlikely you would want to punish the opponent in that auction if the natural 2 !S overcall is legitimate. They are sitting OVER you. You are not sitting OVER them.
Different story if they are deliberating taking advantage of your bidding system and making the overcall with such heinous quality as xxxxx and 0 HCP - maybe the same type of opponents as Brian mentioned?
My advice is not to play against that type of individual. No one wants to play against someone who interferes just for the sake of disruption. Indeed, these are the same types of folk that would play you on-line while having a telephone connection to their partner. If that is their style of play, so be it; but I will not be regarding them as good players - and I do not think you should be forced to modify your bidding system in order to accommodate such miscreants.
John
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IMO, it is highly unlikely you would want to punish the opponent in that auction if the natural 2 !S overcall is legitimate. They are sitting OVER you. You are not sitting OVER them.
Different story if they are deliberating taking advantage of your bidding system and making the overcall with such heinous quality as xxxxx and 0 HCP - maybe the same type of opponents as Brian mentioned?
My advice is not to play against that type of individual. No one wants to play against someone who interferes just for the sake of disruption. Indeed, these are the same types of folk that would play you on-line while having a telephone connection to their partner. If that is their style of play, so be it; but I will not be regarding them as good players - and I do not think you should be forced to modify your bidding system in order to accommodate such miscreants.
John
I couldn't possibly disagree more with you, John. Provided it doesn't violate some regulation, e.g. the infamous "Random 1 !S" overcall over a strong 1 !C that shows any 13 cards, you are fully entitled to exploit any weaknesses in your opponents' bidding system. Otherwise you might just as well outlaw all defensive bidding. If I know that opponents can't easily double me for penalties, then my pre-empts become a LOT more aggressive. That's just good bridge, IMHO.
However, the phone connection to your partner is an entirely different matter. That's cheating in its purest form, and can never be acceptable.
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I'm not sure that we've ever addressed this exact kind of sequence (eg: 1 !C - 1NT - (2 !S =Nat), or 1 !C - 1 !H - (2 !H =Nat).
- If Opps' bid is ostensibly natural, then there is a good case for
- Keeping Pass as Gamma (ie: Opps' bid is an almost certain psyche and Opener has decent support).
- If Opener has their own long suit elsewhere they want to ask about, they can do so
- Forget Double being the suit below and make it strictly for penalties with a holding such as Hx. If Opps run to something else we should be well placed to penalise them there as well (If Opener has no long suits of their own, they're likely strong balanced).
- With a shortage in Partner's suit we can leave 2NT as being HoC to see if Partner has any more of their suit or a second suit to show and fall back on 3NT if they're semi-balanced.
On the other hand, I must confess I don't think I have ever [in over 40 years of playing Precision] seen this kind of sequence at the table where Opps have overcalled a suit positive with a genuine bid of the same suit, so maybe John is right and making any changes to accommodate such an unlikely sequence is a waste of effort.
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I'm in total agreement with Oliver, and you can add my 40 years of Precision to his, I can't recall opponents who ever made such a bid (and it's so fantastically unlikely that I think it would have stuck in my memory). The idea of changing the methods of dealing with intervention to cope with an overcall showing the same suit is simply a non-starter on grounds of frequency.
Such discussions as I had with Oliver on these forums were focused on more likely sequences, e.g. 1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S). I still feel that OCP tends too much towards trying to bid rather than penalising intervention, but I accept that I've done my best to push that viewpoint yet failed to convince Oliver.
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I'm in total agreement with Oliver, and you can add my 40 years of Precision to his, I can't recall opponents who ever made such a bid (and it's so fantastically unlikely that I think it would have stuck in my memory). The idea of changing the methods of dealing with intervention to cope with an overcall showing the same suit is simply a non-starter on grounds of frequency.
Such discussions as I had with Oliver on these forums were focused on more likely sequences, e.g. 1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S). I still feel that OCP tends too much towards trying to bid rather than penalising intervention, but I accept that I've done my best to push that viewpoint yet failed to convince Oliver.
Hi, really like these questions and discussions. However, they do test my lack of knowledge about the OCP System. With that said, I have two questions:
1. Is the 2NT (HOC) bid mostly effective in auctions without interference?
2. Can the interference sequence be modified so that the 2NT bid is used for the asking bid and the double (X) is penalty. Seems like the system only loses one level of bidding if the 2NT (normally HOC) is changed to 2NT (asking) for 1 !C - Positive Response - Interference.
Thanks, Jim
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I'm in total agreement with Oliver, and you can add my 40 years of Precision to his, I can't recall opponents who ever made such a bid (and it's so fantastically unlikely that I think it would have stuck in my memory). The idea of changing the methods of dealing with intervention to cope with an overcall showing the same suit is simply a non-starter on grounds of frequency.
Such discussions as I had with Oliver on these forums were focused on more likely sequences, e.g. 1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S). I still feel that OCP tends too much towards trying to bid rather than penalising intervention, but I accept that I've done my best to push that viewpoint yet failed to convince Oliver.
Hi, really like these questions and discussions. However, they do test my lack of knowledge about the OCP System. With that said, I have two questions:
1. Is the 2NT (HOC) bid mostly effective in auctions without interference?
2. Can the interference sequence be modified so that the 2NT bid is used for the asking bid and the double (X) is penalty. Seems like the system only loses one level of bidding if the 2NT (normally HOC) is changed to 2NT (asking) for 1 !C - Positive Response - Interference.
Thanks, Jim
HoC is absolutely essential to the system, Jim. The reason is that, if you look at the responses to the trump asking bids when responder is NOT 4441 (so exclude Eta), they fairly clearly assume that asker (or responder, if it's gamma) has at least 5 cards in the suit. You can tell this from the level of the responses which agree trumps. Unless you really like playing Moysian fits, HoC is the way to go if you need to look for 4-4 fits. So the answer to question 2 is that yes, it could, but in order to do so you need to come up with an alternative way for opener to bid a balanced hand when responder is also balanced, or when opener is 4432 or even 4441 (though opener must have a powerhouse, 24+, if 4441) with the shortage in the suit of responder's positive. I put a lot of thought into trying to give opener a penalty double when opps interfere, and it's not easy.
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m
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HoC is absolutely essential to the system, Jim. The reason is that, if you look at the responses to the trump asking bids when responder is NOT 4441 (so exclude Eta), they fairly clearly assume that asker (or responder, if it's gamma) has at least 5 cards in the suit. You can tell this from the level of the responses which agree trumps. Unless you really like playing Moysian fits, HoC is the way to go if you need to look for 4-4 fits. So the answer to question 2 is that yes, it could, but in order to do so you need to come up with an alternative way for opener to bid a balanced hand when responder is also balanced, or when opener is 4432 or even 4441 (though opener must have a powerhouse, 24+, if 4441) with the shortage in the suit of responder's positive. I put a lot of thought into trying to give opener a penalty double when opps interfere, and it's not easy.
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Got it, thanks. Just thought I would ask. A lot of opponents think they can freely enter the Strong Club auctions at the lower level without penalty. There must be some dual option bid. Have you considered this sequence:
pass is gamma
double shows balanced hand and is either penalty or HoC (responder now knows you are balanced and decides on HoC or penalty).
2NT is suit below
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m
HoC is absolutely essential to the system, Jim. The reason is that, if you look at the responses to the trump asking bids when responder is NOT 4441 (so exclude Eta), they fairly clearly assume that asker (or responder, if it's gamma) has at least 5 cards in the suit. You can tell this from the level of the responses which agree trumps. Unless you really like playing Moysian fits, HoC is the way to go if you need to look for 4-4 fits. So the answer to question 2 is that yes, it could, but in order to do so you need to come up with an alternative way for opener to bid a balanced hand when responder is also balanced, or when opener is 4432 or even 4441 (though opener must have a powerhouse, 24+, if 4441) with the shortage in the suit of responder's positive. I put a lot of thought into trying to give opener a penalty double when opps interfere, and it's not easy.
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Got it, thanks. Just thought I would ask. A lot of opponents think they can freely enter the Strong Club auctions at the lower level without penalty. There must be some dual option bid. Have you considered this sequence:
pass is gamma
double shows balanced hand and is either penalty or HoC (responder now knows you are balanced and decides on HoC or penalty).
2NT is suit below
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The problem with that idea is that opener is unlimited, and you're making the weaker hand decide on whether to look for 4-4 fits or play for penalties. How does responder know whether opener has a minimum 16 HCP balanced or is very much stronger? Responder can't know whether to assess the possible penalty against a game our way or a slam our way. Don't let me discourage you from thinking of ideas, Jim, but there's been an awful lot have been tried over the years, and nobody has yet come up with a foolproof way of handling pre-emption - nobody would do it if they had!
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Brian, would like to take that theory one more step. Using this example....1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S)
Penalty System with interference and balanced hands with no trump support for partners bid.
pass is gamma
double is either penalty or HoC (openers hand is balanced good strength, medium strength TBD (16-21), no more than 2 !H's, )
2NT is alpha in suit below
3NT balanced strong strength, strength TBD (22+) and again no more than 2 !H's, possible slam (can use stayman ?)
Note: Without interference than 2NT would be normal HoC
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mistakes always is made......
and of course there are some players that never ask over a bid even if ops knock down (want to explain) because they believe that may ops ''wake up'' from a missunderstand.........
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Brian, would like to take that theory one more step. Using this example....1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S)
Penalty System with interference and balanced hands with no trump support for partners bid.
pass is gamma
double is either penalty or HoC (openers hand is balanced good strength, medium strength TBD (16-21), no more than 2 !H's, )
2NT is alpha in suit below
3NT balanced strong strength, strength TBD (22+) and again no more than 2 !H's, possible slam (can use stayman ?)
Note: Without interference than 2NT would be normal HoC
I still don't really like it, Jim, as you're making responder guess opener's hand. Either/or doubles are a pet hate of mine if it means a guess of whether to pass it out or not. The cynic in me calls them "blame transfer doubles", in other words you can double on a wide range of hands and then blame partner when they guess wrong. Two-way doubles are fine if they're forcing in any event, or if the action taken depends on the responder's own hand rather than the doubler's hand.
I'm not saying that your scheme is unplayable, just that I personally don't like it.
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Brian, would like to take that theory one more step. Using this example....1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S)
Penalty System with interference and balanced hands with no trump support for partners bid.
pass is gamma
double is either penalty or HoC (openers hand is balanced good strength, medium strength TBD (16-21), no more than 2 !H's, )
2NT is alpha in suit below
3NT balanced strong strength, strength TBD (22+) and again no more than 2 !H's, possible slam (can use stayman ?)
Note: Without interference than 2NT would be normal HoC
I still don't really like it, Jim, as you're making responder guess opener's hand. Either/or doubles are a pet hate of mine if it means a guess of whether to pass it out or not. The cynic in me calls them "blame transfer doubles", in other words you can double on a wide range of hands and then blame partner when they guess wrong. Two-way doubles are fine if they're forcing in any event, or if the action taken depends on the responder's own hand rather than the doubler's hand.
I'm not saying that your scheme is unplayable, just that I personally don't like it.
Really appreciate the responses.
Yes, there is "some" guessing on the part of responder. Opener's double (over interference) better defines his/her distribution and limits the HCP's. And in this case (as you indicated), "the action taken depends on the responder's own hand rather than the doubler's hand", since opener is better defining the hand. The proposal is that a double (over interference) shows balanced hand with HCP limit and is either convertible or HoC.
The technique does tell responder two things, openers hand is 'balanced" and capped at 16-19/20/21 HCP's depending on the partnership agreement. Responder has a better feel for whether or not slam is possible and can estimate the penalty potential (Vul vs NVul). Note: There is also potential for responder to bid 2NT and that would set up a whole different sequence.
The 3NT bid indicates a balanced hand with 20/21/22+ HCP's (again depending on partnership agreement) and responder can proceed if she/he thinks game is better or slam is possible.
Also, IMO this technique of two-way double with interference (Penalty or HoC) should "not" be used when opener has a distributional hand.
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Brian, would like to take that theory one more step. Using this example....1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S)
Penalty System with interference and balanced hands with no trump support for partners bid.
pass is gamma
double is either penalty or HoC (openers hand is balanced good strength, medium strength TBD (16-21), no more than 2 !H's, )
2NT is alpha in suit below
3NT balanced strong strength, strength TBD (22+) and again no more than 2 !H's, possible slam (can use stayman ?)
Note: Without interference than 2NT would be normal HoC
I still don't really like it, Jim, as you're making responder guess opener's hand. Either/or doubles are a pet hate of mine if it means a guess of whether to pass it out or not. The cynic in me calls them "blame transfer doubles", in other words you can double on a wide range of hands and then blame partner when they guess wrong. Two-way doubles are fine if they're forcing in any event, or if the action taken depends on the responder's own hand rather than the doubler's hand.
I'm not saying that your scheme is unplayable, just that I personally don't like it.
Really appreciate the responses.
Yes, there is "some" guessing on the part of responder. Opener's double (over interference) better defines his/her distribution and limits the HCP's. And in this case (as you indicated), "the action taken depends on the responder's own hand rather than the doubler's hand", since opener is better defining the hand. The proposal is that a double (over interference) shows balanced hand with HCP limit and is either convertible or HoC.
The technique does tell responder two things, openers hand is 'balanced" and capped at 16-19/20/21 HCP's depending on the partnership agreement. Responder has a better feel for whether or not slam is possible and can estimate the penalty potential (Vul vs NVul). Note: There is also potential for responder to bid 2NT and that would set up a whole different sequence.
The 3NT bid indicates a balanced hand with 20/21/22+ HCP's (again depending on partnership agreement) and responder can proceed if she/he thinks game is better or slam is possible.
Also, IMO this technique of two-way double with interference (Penalty or HoC) should "not" be used when opener has a distributional hand.
I still don't like it. The bidding has gone as you suggest, with opener making your two-way double, and my 1 !H positive was on !S xx !H KQJxx !D xx !C KJxx. Please tell me whether I bid 3 !C over the double or pass it out, and why.
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I still don't like it. The bidding has gone as you suggest, with opener making your two-way double, and my 1 !H positive was on !S xx !H KQJxx !D xx !C KJxx. Please tell me whether I bid 3 !C over the double or pass it out, and why.
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IMO, you would definitely bid 3 !C removing the double. There is already a tentative game force (not absolute). The hand is almost minimum and not a good defensive hand. You do not have 6 !H's. In addition, partner has shown balanced distribution with 16-19/20 HCP's. It's beginning to look like 3NT is the best contract.
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I still don't like it. The bidding has gone as you suggest, with opener making your two-way double, and my 1 !H positive was on !S xx !H KQJxx !D xx !C KJxx. Please tell me whether I bid 3 !C over the double or pass it out, and why.
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IMO, you would definitely bid 3 !C removing the double. There is already a tentative game force (not absolute). The hand is almost minimum and not a good defensive hand. You do not have 6 !H's. In addition, partner has shown balanced distribution with 16-19/20 HCP's. It's beginning to look like 3NT is the best contract.
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I have to disagree again. After 1 !C-1 !H there is an absolute game force, unless the opponents offer us a more lucrative alternative. I'm just trying to understand how your responder is supposed to tell the difference between an opener who has doubled to show the flat balanced hand and the opener who has the full-blooded penalty double. Let me turn the question around. On what sort of 1 !H positive do you expect responder to assume that opener's double is for penalties, rather than being a balanced 16-19/20?
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LOLOL ...I was just going to say, you cannot have a "tentative" game force. A bid is either game-forcing or it isn't. A positive response to 1 !C, playing OCP or Precision, is 1,000,000% game-forcing!!!! A bid cannot be 50.0001% GF :).
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Positive Response !S xx !H KQJxx !D xx !C KJxx
Hand 1 !S AKxx !H xx !D KQxx !C Axx
Hand 2 !S AKxx !H xx !D AQJx !C Q10x
Hand 3 !S Kxxx !H xx !D AQJx !C AQx
Hand 4 !S Axxx !H xx !D AKQx !C Axx
Hand 5 !S AKx !H xx !D AKJx !C Q987
Hand 6 !S xxx !H Ax !D AKQx !C Axxx
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LOLOL ...I was just going to say, you cannot have a "tentative" game force. A bid is either game-forcing or it isn't. A positive response to 1 !C, playing OCP or Precision, is 1,000,000% game-forcing!!!! A bid cannot be 50.0001% GF :).
To be fair to Jim (hey, someone has to be! ;) ) I've seen the term 'conditional game force' used before in books to describe a sequence that is GF or not based on some aspect of the other hand. An OCP example would be
1NT-2 !D-2 !H-2 !S
Personally I would describe 2 !S as "GF unless opener is an absolute minimum" or "GF unless opener rebids 2NT" but I would have no problems in seeing it described as a "conditional game force".
Tentative game forces, however, I've not met up with before. ::)
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Sh-t, told you my grammar and expression was lacking. 8)
I know the condition of game force was established. And in fairness, have you's ever stopped short of 3NT and/or 5m?
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Sh-t, told you my grammar and expression was lacking. 8)
I know the condition of game force was established. And in fairness, have you's ever stopped short of 3NT and/or 5m?
Playing my old Precision system, yes, but we had one sequence where opener specifically showed a misfitting but otherwise flat 16 count, and responder was allowed to pass with exactly 8 HCP.
Playing OCP, or any other version of Precision without that escape sequence? No, never. You accept the occasional hand with 16 opposite 8 where no game can be made as the cost of making life a lot simpler on the vast majority of the other hands.
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Sh-t, told you my grammar and expression was lacking. 8)
I know the condition of game force was established. And in fairness, have you's ever stopped short of 3NT and/or 5m?
Playing my old Precision system, yes, but we had one sequence where opener specifically showed a misfitting but otherwise flat 16 count, and responder was allowed to pass with exactly 8 HCP.
Playing OCP, or any other version of Precision without that escape sequence? No, never. You accept the occasional hand with 16 opposite 8 where no game can be made as the cost of making life a lot simpler on the vast majority of the other hands.
I can handle that answer. :)