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Messages - brian_m

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31
Correct (?) Answers to Bidding Problems / Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« on: April 25, 2019, 03:16:02 PM »
Assuming that partner would make a negative double of the 1 !H overcall with 4 card  !S unless horribly weak, there's no way I'm bidding 1 !S on  !S J987 - if we don't end up buying the hand, the last thing I want is a  !S lead! Cases could be made for 1NT, double and even a pass, depending on vulnerability, what you know of your partner's style and probably even the day of the week, but (at least for me) 1 !S isn't even on the list of possibilities. Now, if you were to take that hand and swap the two black suits, so that I have  !S AK102 and  !C J987, now 1 !S would be my choice.


32
Correct (?) Answers to Bidding Problems / Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« on: April 25, 2019, 12:28:06 PM »
Spiros, you have an auction of 1 !C-(p)-1NT( !S positive)-(2 !S). Is there a typo there?

If not, then how many times do you expect opponents to overcall a spade positive with a natural 2 !S? And if 2 !S is NOT natural, then opponents aren't going to play there whatever you do...?  ???

But you are right, OCP makes it very difficult to penalise opponents at a low level. I've had this argument with Oliver many times on these forums. An opponent who knows the system should interfere whenever possible to take the maximum amount of bidding room right up to the level at which they know that they can't easily be penalised.


33
Correct (?) Answers to Bidding Problems / Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« on: April 24, 2019, 11:12:04 AM »
Quote from: OliverC on April 24, 2019, 07:51:47 AM

The simple 1 !D responses are geared to make it really hard to miss a 4-4 (or even a viable 4-3) Major fit when we're not strong enough to play beyond the 2-level (which is quite a lot of the time, let's face it).

If I may be forgiven a small amount of advertising, if you want to be sure of finding your major fits and greatly reduce the chances of playing in some silly  !D contracts, then in 3rd and 4th seats I really do recommend that you give the 1 !D/1NT scheme from my old system a try. It's in the 'alternative treatments' forum. You should ONLY use this when responder is a passed hand, and cannot have a GF response. Oliver doesn't like the scheme because it means you give up on the pre-emptive 1NT opener (all 11-15 balanced hands are opened 1 !D, 1NT is reserved for hands with genuine  !D) and I absolutely accept that he has a point, but having played the scheme for something in excess of 30 years, I'm firmly convinced that it's a net positive. I did have a scheme for using those NF must-show-a-4CM-even-with-0-HCP responses with an unpassed responder, but I absolutely accept OCP's superiority (yes, both the simple and the complex systems) when responder is unlimited.


Quote from: OliverC on April 24, 2019, 07:51:47 AM
One of the major criticisms of the Complex 1 !D is that it can make it much harder to find a 4-4 Major fit at a low level. Jason and I accepted that (albeit with some reluctance) because of it's perceived advantages in some other areas, but in reality there isn't much to choose between the Simple 1 !D and the Complex 1 !D .


I think I'm correct in saying that, apart from Oliver, I'm probably the one in this group with the greatest experience with the Complex 1 !D, and Oliver is, of course, absolutely correct about the problems. All that I want to add, having now had some experience with the Simple 1 !D, is that my opinion is that in playing the Complex 1 !D, you sacrifice something on the weaker part scores in exchange for significant improvements on invitational and GF hands (the Complex 1 !D is also a much greater load on the memory!). Personally, I think that's a worthwhile exchange.



34
Correct (?) Answers to Bidding Problems / Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« on: April 23, 2019, 12:43:18 AM »
I would quibble with Oliver's answer - I think 20 times out of 10 is an underestimate!  ;)

Seriously, John, I think it's not only your partner you need to tell about this, I think your 1NT rebid becomes alertable (certainly under BBO regulations, at least) if you say that you're playing Precision but are going to bypass a 4-card major.

You're also going to need to add something like Checkback to the system in order to look for a bypassed 4-4  !S fit.

I understand your point about wanting to show the balanced hand, but I really do think you're creating more problems than you're solving.

And what happens if your partner has 4=4=1=4 or 3=4=1=5 shape with insufficient HCP for an initial 2 !C response? Now pard is well and truly stuffed if 2 !C is Checkback - and particularly if your 1NT rebid is 11-12, your probably decent score on 4=4=1=4 is likely to change to a significant minus.

35
Interesting Play Hands / Re: A great asking bid example hand
« on: August 27, 2018, 07:30:36 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on August 27, 2018, 05:50:33 PM
:blank:

Are we awake yet?  ;) Thanks for the quick and direct response.   

In essence,  I whole-heartedly agree with your approach to identifying the singleton K.   Thought your example hand for responder would be improved if it contained the following:

If I have

 !S QJxxx
 !H AQxxxx     (changing the KQxxxx to AQxxxx, since opener had the singleton K)
 !D void
 !C AQ



I didn't mean the two hands to be related - the hand immediately above was just a random example.



Quote from: Jimmy on August 27, 2018, 05:50:33 PM


that would have the two hands being:


 !S AKxxxx                     QJxxx
 !H K                            AQxxxx
 !D AJ10x                      void
 !C xx                           AQ

Now,  it was probably late when I responded and a little tired.  I was looking at the quidelines for using FNT  (shown below)

Forcing 1NT Response
In response to an Opening Bid of 1♠ (or 1♥), 1NT is an artificial 1-round force following which both partners in turn clarify their hand-types. The kinds of hand that generally use a Forcing No Trump are as follows:

  1.  Balanced hands with 8+ hcp and Spade Support
  2.  Balanced hands with 12+ hcp but no 'good' support for Spades
  3. 16+ hands with (or without) Spade support
      A weak hand with no tolerance for Spades and a long (6+-card) suit elsewhere.
  4.  (Note: This hand type can only be shown via the Forcing No Trump if Asking Bids are not being used, or when Responder is a
       passed hand)

Unfortunately,  I used the term balanced hand.  What I meant to infer is that since options 1,2,&4 do not apply (in this example), then option 3 is when responder is going to be the "asker" and it would be important to know all the controls.   

Thanks for tolerating my inexperience using this system. 

That aside, if I were to find a partner to play this system and could find to time to learn it, I think I would show the singleton K

Question:  Can you think of an example where responder has option 1 or 2 and would still activate a Beta Ask?

I think it's possible. If responder has a maximum of type 2, bids 1NTF and then hears opener jump shift, showing a maximum with at least 5-5 in two suits, then I can certainly see beta being used if responder has a good fit for the second suit. 


36
Interesting Play Hands / Re: A great asking bid example hand
« on: August 27, 2018, 12:22:25 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on August 27, 2018, 02:53:25 AM

Hello Brain, 

I looked up the Asking Bid Guidelines for activating Beta's and found this statement for counting singletons:

"Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, we do not count a singleton King as 1 Control unless Partner has shown strength there (eg: an earlier trump ask in that suit) or we know they are strong balanced (and so are likely to have one of the adjoining honours). "

My question is...……………..

Does this statement "or we know they are strong balanced (and so are likely to have on of the adjoining honours" cover your example hand since responder used a "Forcing 1NT" to start the sequence. 

Thanks.

No, absolutely not. The forcing 1NT is a totally artificial bid and (particularly if it's used to switch on the asking bids) absolutely does not indicate a balanced hand. Let's take an example.

If I have

 !S QJxxx
 !H KQxxxx
 !D void
 !C AQ

that's hardly balanced, yet if partner surprises the hell out of me by opening 1 !S then I'm bidding 1NT and then using gamma in  !S over the rebid, both to check for  !S AK and to switch on the asking bids, with absolutely no other options for bidding the hand.

If you follow the guidelines in the notes, then you absolutely would not count a stiff king in the

1M-1NTF
(rebid)-(gamma ask)
(relay beta)-<??>

sequence. You have no grounds for thinking that responder has length in the suit or an adjacent card.

Georgi and I discussed this, and we decided that, if responder was strong enough to switch on the asking bids, the odds were that a stiff King would be worth something, and we were happier with having an accurate count of Aces and Kings held by Teller, and Asker could worry about a King being singleton if it mattered.

So far, I cannot recall this tweak to the system having caused us a problem due to a singleton King, and Georgi and I usually get through close to 100 boards per weekend.

It's another thing to remember. The usual advice still applies - before you think of tweaking the system, make sure that you've a sound knowledge of the unmodified system. Georgi and I are a couple of incurable system tweakers, and a lot of the ideas we come up with don't last the course, but this modification is one that I think we're sticking with!  ;D


Afterthought

I shouldn't post replies before I'm properly awake! What I wrote above about there being no alternative way to bid the hand would have been correct until relatively recently, but of course the example responding hand I gave does have a second possibility, which is 4 !D Exclusion Beta in response to the 1 !S opener.



37
Interesting Play Hands / Re: A great asking bid example hand
« on: August 26, 2018, 11:12:02 PM »
Quote from: lute57 on August 26, 2018, 09:24:26 PM
My thought was the other possible holding(s) being the singleton King !H.

It would not be counted as a control. And even if you counted an additional 3 HCP at the beginning it would still be a 1 !S Opening.

I originally inferred the  !D as Qxx in showing a 3rd round control and not a doubleton because without the Queen of  !D Opener would be a tidge short in HCP to open 1 !S. But Brian is correct. Take those 2 HCP and split them into two Jacks - one for each black suit


John is also correct, if you're following the system as written. I'd missed this third possibility (stiff King) because this is one of the places where Georgi and I deviate from the notes. It's our opinion that, when responder is strong enough to switch on the asking bids after a 1 !H or 1 !S opener, the odds are in favour of the stiff King being worth something. We feel particularly safe in doing this when opener (teller) has extra trump length, because you're unlikely to be susceptible to a forcing defence if the stiff King falls under the Ace and teller then has to ruff.

I can think of one circumstance (prompted by a recent hand which didn't have a stiff King) where it could possibly come back to bite you. As opener, you hold

 !S AQxxxx
 !H K
 !D AJ10x
 !C xx

You open 1 !S, 1NT from pard, 2 !D from you, partner switches on the asks with 2 !H, you show your  !S HHxxxx. Now partner knows that you're at least 6-4 in  !S and  !D, because you wouldn't show only a three card  !D suit in front of six card  !S. Pard continues with relay beta over the gamma response, and now here's the significant difference.

If you are playing as per the website, and if partner has sufficient of the high cards to know that your fifth control has to be the  !H or  !C King, then partner knows that your King must be guarded. Georgi and I do not have that information, for us the King could be a stiff with a small doubleton in the other suit, as above. Can this cost? I think so, I think it's probably possible to construct a hand for Asker such that 6 !S is a good contract with Kx and a singleton in Teller's hand, but not with a stiff King and a small doubleton. I admit this is just gut feeling, I haven't put sufficient thought into this to construct such a hand.

All I can tell you is that I'm not aware of the way that Georgi and I count stiff Kings in relay beta (and a few other places!) ever having cost us.



38
Interesting Play Hands / Re: A great asking bid example hand
« on: August 21, 2018, 08:50:33 PM »
Well, after a week and no replies, I guess I may as well just post up the answer.

The ambiguity in the hand is based on the 3rd round control shown by the  !D Epsilon. Without a further ask, you don't know whether this is the  !D Q or a doubleton. So, opener's two possible hands are

 !S Qxxxxx
 !H x
 !D Qxx
 !C AKx

(which I think is the hand Roger may have intended, note that opener may have one or both black Jacks, you can't tell from the bidding)

and

 !S QJxxxx
 !H x
 !D xx
 !C AKJx

which is the other possibility. There are those among us who wouldn't insist on having both black Jacks either, but I put them in there for the benefit of those who pay (undue?) regard to HCPs.


Please note I've done this from memory. I THINK I remember the hands correctly,but if I've duplicated a card, well, it happens!

.



39
Interesting Play Hands / Re: A great asking bid example hand
« on: August 14, 2018, 03:32:53 PM »
Quote from: lute57 on August 14, 2018, 04:16:50 AM
I need your assistance, Roger. I tried to open the file but it says I have to download aaBridge player first. I have already loaded your program. Not sure what I am doing wrong. Any suggestions?

If you tried to open the file by double-clicking on it and you have the old Windows client installed, John, then it may well be that .LIN files are associated with that program (NetBridgeVu.exe) rather than Roger's program. Unfortunately, I can't remember enough Windows (and it's probably different under Windows 10!) to tell you how to change the file associations. Possibly opening Roger's program first and then trying to open the .LIN file from within Roger's program will be an easy workround.


P.S.  A pedant writes - I can give you two hands consistent with your bidding, Roger. Your quiz question is to give me the second one...  ;D  And yes, I think the other hand is just as good an opener as the one I think you had!




40
Bidding Challenges / Re: Another One
« on: July 24, 2018, 04:49:26 PM »
Quote from: brian_m on July 24, 2018, 02:29:51 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on July 24, 2018, 01:47:44 PM


Speaking of overcalls, I think I might also be finding a bid directly over South's strong 1 !C with the West hand. You can only combat the opponents you have, but it seems to me that your opponents could benefit from some guidance of how to defend against Precision!


Yup, no doubt about that.    ::)

Most of our opponents are 2/1 and are unfamiliar with Strong Club Systems.   The better players interfere early and then stop without sacrificing.  (not sure why,  but,  we have built preventative penalty doubles into the system).  In this case,  E/W would have been down 4 at 6 hearts,


I'm not going to 6 !H at equal vulnerability, but a pair that doesn't get to 4 !H (or 5 !C) early in the bidding isn't even trying.

41
Bidding Challenges / Re: Another One
« on: July 24, 2018, 02:29:51 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on July 24, 2018, 01:47:44 PM
Yup,   I should have included the whole hand,  thought about it.   Here it is and based on the whole hand East would probably pass and West might bid later (?)  Hard to say what opponents would do against OCP,  just know what our opponents did against our strong club system. 

Again,  the opponents bidding the Hearts and Clubs definitely helped us bid the slam (allowed for cue bid showing control and Diamond support).   Not sure if we would have bid a slam without the opponents help.  Thanks. 

                                           Dealer South  No One Vul

                                          North

                                            !S
                                            !H 10432
                                            !D AJ98765
                                            !C K3
 West                                                                                         East                     

 !S 875                                                                                         !S  QJ64
 !H KJ9                                                                                         !H  Q8765
 !D 2                                                                                            !D  3
 !C QJ8762                                                                                    !C  A109
                                                South

                                                !S AK10932
                                                !H A
                                                !D KQ104
                                                !C 54

OK, then let's resume with East passing

1 !C  -   P  -     2 !D  -  2 !H      (Positive Response in Diamonds, 5+)
pass  -  3 !C  -  3 !H  -  pass        (pass =  !D gamma, 3 !H =  !D Hxxxxx)
3 !S  -  pass  -  4 !C  - pass       (3 !S = relay beta, 4 !C = 3 controls)
4 !H  - pass  - 4 !S   -  pass       (4 !H = Epsilon, cheaper than 5 !C, 4 !S = no  !H control, can't have  !H AK)
6 !D - all pass                           (3 controls must be  !D A and  !C K)

It would get a little more awkward if West bids 4 !H over 3 !S because North will pass to show 3 controls. Now I think South has run out of room because a  !C Epsilon will mean we go past 5 !D with two  !C losers if North has specifically 3rd round control.

I do have to say that I think West's 3 !C is a crap bid, though. Look at how much more difficult it is if West, knowing that opponents have a 1 !C opener and a positive response, just makes the sensible bid of 4 !H after his partner's 2 !H. Maybe West has been burned by East's overcalls before!  ;D  I'd certainly prefer a double (assuming it's takeout of  !D) on East's hand rather than bidding that moth-eaten  !H suit.

Speaking of overcalls, I think I might also be finding a bid directly over South's strong 1 !C with the West hand. You can only combat the opponents you have, but it seems to me that your opponents could benefit from some guidance of how to defend against Precision!

42
Bidding Challenges / Re: Another One
« on: July 24, 2018, 10:07:15 AM »
Quote from: Jimmy on July 24, 2018, 03:24:52 AM
Had this hand today.  Ended up in 6 !D played from the North Hand (lead into the Club K). 

Note:  There was interference bidding by E/W in Hearts & Clubs,  which allowed South to Que Bid Hearts.  The interference allowed us to bid a reasonable slam. 

Curious as to how OCP handles this one with the interference.


Our bidding was
South            North
1 !C  -   P  -     2 !D  -  2 !H      (Positive Response in Diamonds, 5+)
2 !S  -  3 !C  -  3 !D  -  3 !H     (6+ Diamonds)
4 !H  -   P    -   4NT   - P           (4 Hearts Cue, showed control and good Diamond Support  - 4NT is KCB)
5 !H  -   P   -    6 !D                  (3/5 Controls,   North bids 6 diamonds with what appears to be protected K clubs since West on lead)

Thanks.   


Dealer South

North

 !S
 !H 10432
 !D AJ98765
 !C K3

South

 !S AK10932
 !H A
 !D KQ104
 !C 54


There's not enough information here, Jimmy, because East will not be able to bid 3 !H.

The bidding using OCP will go

1 !C  -   P  -     2 !D  -  2 !H      (Positive Response in Diamonds, 5+)
pass  -  3 !C  -  3 !H  -  ??        (pass =  !D gamma, 3 !H =  !D Hxxxxx)

and now we need to know whether East is going to pass or bid 4 !H, or maybe even be obliging enough to gift us a couple of extra bids by doubling 3 !H (I've seen it happen far too many times to discount the possibility!)  ::)



43
Bidding Challenges / Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« on: July 15, 2018, 09:02:55 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on July 15, 2018, 08:21:14 PM
Hi Guys, 

Thanks for the responses.   John,  have a question for you. 

In your response you used the forcing one NT bid with opener bidding 2H and responder now bidding 3C gamma. 

How does the bidding proceed if opener bids 3S showing max with 6 spades ( in effect, hiding the heart fit)? 

1 !S - 1NT
3 !S

I'll let John wrestle with the sequences, but I have to say that if the 3 !S rebid results in your missing the slam, I would put the blame 100% on opener, and I don't need to see the rest of the sequence to say that!  ::)

IMO, at least, the only excuse for suppressing the  !H suit is if it's abysmally weak, and by that I mean something like 6xxx, not A10xx. If your spades are long enough in a maximum hand that you feel you have to hide a decent  !H suit to bid 3 !S, then you should probably have promoted the hand to 1 !C in the first place.

Just bid 2 !H. If responder passes this then it's probable that 1NT was a desperation measure on a weak 0=4=4=5 or something close to it, and 2 !H is probably a much better contract than 3 !S. If responder intends a rebid, then you'll be much better placed when you have some idea of what responder has, and if responder wants to take control and go into the strong sequences, then you've made a much better start on describing your hand.


44
Bidding Challenges / Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« on: July 15, 2018, 01:08:04 PM »
Quote from: lute57 on July 15, 2018, 05:39:39 AM
On that premise, some OCP practitioners might have pushed to 7 !S but do not include me in there.

John

Me neither! Nine cards and you need to find the Queen to make is fair game for a small slam, but it's not good enough odds for a grand slam. Bidding 7 of a major on Jimmy's hand will be a net loser in the long run.


45
Bidding Challenges / Re: Interesting Hand - How would OCP Bid this hand?
« on: July 05, 2018, 12:10:59 AM »
There is another alternative, which I had forgotten - instead of the 4 !H beta, you can bid 4NT as an invite to cue. If that happens, then opener has an interesting next bid. With first round controls in TWO outside suits, again it's a matter of partnership agreement. I used to use an agreement that, after the intermediate suit slam try, we would bid 4NT with two first round controls. Obviously the fact that OCP uses the intermediate suit as beta and the 4NT response as the invite to cue kills off that scheme, but I suppose you could use 5NT as indicating two first round controls. This has to be an Ace and a void, because with two Aces and a good  !S suit you would open 1 !S or 1 !C rather than 4 !D (at least, I would!)

In fairness to Oliver, you just can't expect a set of web notes to cover a system to this depth - nobody would ever learn the thing if Oliver tried to cover everything - so it just has to be left up to partnership understanding, and if you'e not in a regular partnership which wants to go into things in this sort of depth, then the once a decade that it comes up, you just have to shut your eyes and guess!  ::)


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