OCP-related Discussions > Correct (?) Answers to Bidding Problems
[Bidding problem] OCP simple system
brian_m:
--- Quote from: Jimmy on April 26, 2019, 02:54:22 AM ---Rebid 1 !S 20 times out of 10:
(1) It's more constructive
(2) The priority in your bidding should be to find "somewhere else" to play. Finding a Major suit fit is the No 1 priority and opting to play in NT's in the absence of a Major fit is a close second.
(3) Depending on how the subsequent bidding goes, partner will realise that you may be 13-15 balanced, even when you've rebid 1 !S . Rebidding 1NT, however, categorically denies having 4-card Spades and nothing you do subsequently would ever convince an OCP Partner that you have a 4th Spade.
I would quibble with Oliver's answer - I think 20 times out of 10 is an underestimate! ;)
I agree with both Oliver and Brian's comments. In the example given, IMO opener should definitely bid 1 !S for a variety of reasons:
1. It is the general system rule (unless modified by partnership).
2. The 1 !S bid should still be considered one round forcing.
3. Opener can still have up to 15 HCP and in this example has 14 HCP with 3-10's, a QJ10 + J987 combos.
4. Responder has shown 8+ HCP with the 1 !H response and also can still have up to 15 HCP's.
5. The 1 !S bid allows responder to show his values/distribution.
6. And 1NT by opener sort of indicates a minimum hand.
JMO, Jim
--- End quote ---
I disagree with a couple of those points, Jim.
Point 2) I think 1 !S is passable if responder is dead minimum, or even slightly sub-minimum (responder scraped the barrel for a 1 !H response because they were short in !D and wanted to avoid the possibility of being passed out in 1 !D if opener was short. Give me !S Kxx !H QJ10x !D xx !C Qxxx. If it goes 1 !D-1 !H-1 !S, I'm passing 1 !S without a moment's thought.
Point 6) Whether opener is maximum or minimum depends on vulnerability, to a large extent. What 1NT indicates (as well as denying 4-card !S) is a balanced hand of the wrong range to have opened 1NT. If we are NV, and the mini 1NT is in force, then 1 !D-1 !H-1NT is 13-15.
OliverC:
1 !D - 1 !H - 1 !S is eminently, 100% and utterly passable, as Brian says. Opener has limited their hand by Opening 1 !D. Nothing they bid is forcing in any subsequent [natural] sequence, unless a forcing sequence is initiated by Responder.
This 1 !D - 2 !C - 2 !H is forcing, not because 2 !H is forcing, but because 2 !C is effectively forcing to 2NT and now Opener has reversed into 2 !H.
Similarly 1 !D - 1 !H - 2 !C - 2 !S - 3 !D is forcing, but only because the 2 !S reverse is 100% GF.
Bottom line is that it is effectively impossible for an intermediate Opener to initiate a forcing sequence. The impetus for that almost always comes from Responder. The only real exceptions would be splinters by Opener (eg: 1 !D - 2 !C - 3 !H, which would be violently agreeing Clubs and showing a Spade shortage).
Jimmy:
--- Quote from: OliverC on April 27, 2019, 08:40:16 PM ---1 !D - 1 !H - 1 !S is eminently, 100% and utterly passable, as Brian says. Opener has limited their hand by Opening 1 !D. Nothing they bid is forcing in any subsequent [natural] sequence, unless a forcing sequence is initiated by Responder.
This 1 !D - 2 !C - 2 !H is forcing, not because 2 !H is forcing, but because 2 !C is effectively forcing to 2NT and now Opener has reversed into 2 !H.
Similarly 1 !D - 1 !H - 2 !C - 2 !S - 3 !D is forcing, but only because the 2 !S reverse is 100% GF.
Bottom line is that it is effectively impossible for an intermediate Opener to initiate a forcing sequence. The impetus for that almost always comes from Responder. The only real exceptions would be splinters by Opener (eg: 1 !D - 2 !C - 3 !H, which would be violently agreeing Clubs and showing a Spade shortage).
--- End quote ---
OK, I can definitely deal with the 1 !D-1 !H-1 !S as passable considering responder is on a dead minimum of 8 (which Brian has constructed), maybe 9 HCP with very poor distribution. Not very likely or responder would have passed the 1 !D. "We" have learned not to bid over 1 !D unless we have a good 8 or 8+ HCP's. This requirement is a partnership agreement. But, based on past experience, I would recommend that it be solid 8 or 8+ to respond to the 1 !D. JMO
!S J987
!H K10
!D QJ10
!C AK102
!S Kxx
!H QJ10x
!D xx
!C Qxxx
In this discussion the original hand and Brians hand are shown above. At worst 1NT would be down at most 2. If doubled, the contract could easily be in 2 !C. Not sure how 1 !S would end up. Losers on AK !D, A !H, likely a !C ruff. Then the !S's.
brian_m:
--- Quote from: Jimmy on April 28, 2019, 01:49:17 AM ---
--- Quote from: OliverC on April 27, 2019, 08:40:16 PM ---1 !D - 1 !H - 1 !S is eminently, 100% and utterly passable, as Brian says. Opener has limited their hand by Opening 1 !D. Nothing they bid is forcing in any subsequent [natural] sequence, unless a forcing sequence is initiated by Responder.
This 1 !D - 2 !C - 2 !H is forcing, not because 2 !H is forcing, but because 2 !C is effectively forcing to 2NT and now Opener has reversed into 2 !H.
Similarly 1 !D - 1 !H - 2 !C - 2 !S - 3 !D is forcing, but only because the 2 !S reverse is 100% GF.
Bottom line is that it is effectively impossible for an intermediate Opener to initiate a forcing sequence. The impetus for that almost always comes from Responder. The only real exceptions would be splinters by Opener (eg: 1 !D - 2 !C - 3 !H, which would be violently agreeing Clubs and showing a Spade shortage).
--- End quote ---
OK, I can definitely deal with the 1 !D-1 !H-1 !S as passable considering responder is on a dead minimum of 8 (which Brian has constructed), maybe 9 HCP with very poor distribution. Not very likely or responder would have passed the 1 !D. "We" have learned not to bid over 1 !D unless we have a good 8 or 8+ HCP's. This requirement is a partnership agreement. But, based on past experience, I would recommend that it be solid 8 or 8+ to respond to the 1 !D. JMO
!S J987
!H K10
!D QJ10
!C AK102
!S Kxx
!H QJ10x
!D xx
!C Qxxx
In this discussion the original hand and Brians hand are shown above. At worst 1NT would be down at most 2. If doubled, the contract could easily be in 2 !C. Not sure how 1 !S would end up. Losers on AK !D, A !H, likely a !C ruff. Then the !S's.
--- End quote ---
Well, Jim, your opinion and my experience differ is all I can say. Especially if we are at adverse vulnerability and playing opponents who understand Precision, I will shade a 1 !H bid rather than risk a silly !D contract.
Give me !S Qxxx !H Qxxx !D x !C Qxxx and I am going to bid 1 !H over 1 !D, and then pass opener's rebid, all day every day. Yes, sometimes I will end up in 2 !D rather than 1 !D, but when I do, opener will have a genuine !D suit, and I will NOT be playing in 1 !D on a combined 3-card trump suit!
This may be (mildly) anti-system as far as OCP is concerned. I don't care. What I do care about is not going down -300 or more against a part score when opponents with a genuine !D suit know enough to pass us out in 1 !D. And yes, for avoidance of doubt, I do alert 1 !H as "may be shaded if I hate !D").
OliverC:
Anti-system or not, Brian, it's just plain common-sense. I do exactly the same with that hand type. The fundamental point here is that if Opener has shown an intermediate hand, the basic principal is that they cannot initiate a game-forcing sequence and in most instances cannot initiate any kind of forcing sequence except maybe an occasional bid that is forcing for 1 round (eg: new suit at the 3-level), but the likelyhood is that even there the whole sequence will probably be forcing because of a bid that Responder has made.
Yes, Jimmy, Responder (and Opener) should keep the bidding open if they think their hand warrants it, but that's a million miles away from the sequence being forcing.
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