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 1 
 on: September 18, 2018, 02:29:15 AM 
Started by OliverC - Last post by lute57
nice example (and much easier on the brain than paritywood - inside humor - no offense Brian)

 2 
 on: September 17, 2018, 10:31:51 AM 
Started by OliverC - Last post by wijelonata
doxycycline-cheapbuy.site.ankor <a href="http://onlinebuycytotec.site/">onlinebuycytotec.site.ankor</a>

 3 
 on: August 27, 2018, 07:30:36 PM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by brian_m
:blank:

Are we awake yet?  ;) Thanks for the quick and direct response.   

In essence,  I whole-heartedly agree with your approach to identifying the singleton K.   Thought your example hand for responder would be improved if it contained the following:

If I have

 !S QJxxx
 !H AQxxxx     (changing the KQxxxx to AQxxxx, since opener had the singleton K)
 !D void
 !C AQ



I didn't mean the two hands to be related - the hand immediately above was just a random example.





that would have the two hands being:


 !S AKxxxx                     QJxxx
 !H K                            AQxxxx
 !D AJ10x                      void
 !C xx                           AQ

Now,  it was probably late when I responded and a little tired.  I was looking at the quidelines for using FNT  (shown below)

Forcing 1NT Response
In response to an Opening Bid of 1♠ (or 1♥), 1NT is an artificial 1-round force following which both partners in turn clarify their hand-types. The kinds of hand that generally use a Forcing No Trump are as follows:

  1.  Balanced hands with 8+ hcp and Spade Support
  2.  Balanced hands with 12+ hcp but no 'good' support for Spades
  3. 16+ hands with (or without) Spade support
      A weak hand with no tolerance for Spades and a long (6+-card) suit elsewhere.
  4.  (Note: This hand type can only be shown via the Forcing No Trump if Asking Bids are not being used, or when Responder is a
       passed hand)

Unfortunately,  I used the term balanced hand.  What I meant to infer is that since options 1,2,&4 do not apply (in this example), then option 3 is when responder is going to be the "asker" and it would be important to know all the controls.   

Thanks for tolerating my inexperience using this system. 

That aside, if I were to find a partner to play this system and could find to time to learn it, I think I would show the singleton K

Question:  Can you think of an example where responder has option 1 or 2 and would still activate a Beta Ask?

I think it's possible. If responder has a maximum of type 2, bids 1NTF and then hears opener jump shift, showing a maximum with at least 5-5 in two suits, then I can certainly see beta being used if responder has a good fit for the second suit. 


 4 
 on: August 27, 2018, 05:50:33 PM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by Jimmy
 :blank:

Are we awake yet?  ;) Thanks for the quick and direct response.   

In essence,  I whole-heartedly agree with your approach to identifying the singleton K.   Thought your example hand for responder would be improved if it contained the following:

If I have

 !S QJxxx
 !H AQxxxx     (changing the KQxxxx to AQxxxx, since opener had the singleton K)
 !D void
 !C AQ

that would have the two hands being:


 !S AKxxxx                     QJxxx
 !H K                            AQxxxx
 !D AJ10x                      void
 !C xx                           AQ

Now,  it was probably late when I responded and a little tired.  I was looking at the quidelines for using FNT  (shown below)

Forcing 1NT Response
In response to an Opening Bid of 1♠ (or 1♥), 1NT is an artificial 1-round force following which both partners in turn clarify their hand-types. The kinds of hand that generally use a Forcing No Trump are as follows:

  1.  Balanced hands with 8+ hcp and Spade Support
  2.  Balanced hands with 12+ hcp but no 'good' support for Spades
  3. 16+ hands with (or without) Spade support
      A weak hand with no tolerance for Spades and a long (6+-card) suit elsewhere.
  4.  (Note: This hand type can only be shown via the Forcing No Trump if Asking Bids are not being used, or when Responder is a
       passed hand)

Unfortunately,  I used the term balanced hand.  What I meant to infer is that since options 1,2,&4 do not apply (in this example), then option 3 is when responder is going to be the "asker" and it would be important to know all the controls.   

Thanks for tolerating my inexperience using this system. 

That aside, if I were to find a partner to play this system and could find to time to learn it, I think I would show the singleton K

Question:  Can you think of an example where responder has option 1 or 2 and would still activate a Beta Ask?

 5 
 on: August 27, 2018, 12:22:25 PM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by brian_m

Hello Brain, 

I looked up the Asking Bid Guidelines for activating Beta's and found this statement for counting singletons:

"Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, we do not count a singleton King as 1 Control unless Partner has shown strength there (eg: an earlier trump ask in that suit) or we know they are strong balanced (and so are likely to have one of the adjoining honours). "

My question is...……………..

Does this statement "or we know they are strong balanced (and so are likely to have on of the adjoining honours" cover your example hand since responder used a "Forcing 1NT" to start the sequence. 

Thanks.

No, absolutely not. The forcing 1NT is a totally artificial bid and (particularly if it's used to switch on the asking bids) absolutely does not indicate a balanced hand. Let's take an example.

If I have

 !S QJxxx
 !H KQxxxx
 !D void
 !C AQ

that's hardly balanced, yet if partner surprises the hell out of me by opening 1 !S then I'm bidding 1NT and then using gamma in  !S over the rebid, both to check for  !S AK and to switch on the asking bids, with absolutely no other options for bidding the hand.

If you follow the guidelines in the notes, then you absolutely would not count a stiff king in the

1M-1NTF
(rebid)-(gamma ask)
(relay beta)-<??>

sequence. You have no grounds for thinking that responder has length in the suit or an adjacent card.

Georgi and I discussed this, and we decided that, if responder was strong enough to switch on the asking bids, the odds were that a stiff King would be worth something, and we were happier with having an accurate count of Aces and Kings held by Teller, and Asker could worry about a King being singleton if it mattered.

So far, I cannot recall this tweak to the system having caused us a problem due to a singleton King, and Georgi and I usually get through close to 100 boards per weekend.

It's another thing to remember. The usual advice still applies - before you think of tweaking the system, make sure that you've a sound knowledge of the unmodified system. Georgi and I are a couple of incurable system tweakers, and a lot of the ideas we come up with don't last the course, but this modification is one that I think we're sticking with!  ;D


Afterthought

I shouldn't post replies before I'm properly awake! What I wrote above about there being no alternative way to bid the hand would have been correct until relatively recently, but of course the example responding hand I gave does have a second possibility, which is 4 !D Exclusion Beta in response to the 1 !S opener.



 6 
 on: August 27, 2018, 02:53:25 AM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by Jimmy
My thought was the other possible holding(s) being the singleton King !H.

It would not be counted as a control. And even if you counted an additional 3 HCP at the beginning it would still be a 1 !S Opening.

I originally inferred the  !D as Qxx in showing a 3rd round control and not a doubleton because without the Queen of  !D Opener would be a tidge short in HCP to open 1 !S. But Brian is correct. Take those 2 HCP and split them into two Jacks - one for each black suit


John is also correct, if you're following the system as written. I'd missed this third possibility (stiff King) because this is one of the places where Georgi and I deviate from the notes. It's our opinion that, when responder is strong enough to switch on the asking bids after a 1 !H or 1 !S opener, the odds are in favour of the stiff King being worth something. We feel particularly safe in doing this when opener (teller) has extra trump length, because you're unlikely to be susceptible to a forcing defence if the stiff King falls under the Ace and teller then has to ruff.

I can think of one circumstance (prompted by a recent hand which didn't have a stiff King) where it could possibly come back to bite you. As opener, you hold

 !S AQxxxx
 !H K
 !D AJ10x
 !C xx

You open 1 !S, 1NT from pard, 2 !D from you, partner switches on the asks with 2 !H, you show your  !S HHxxxx. Now partner knows that you're at least 6-4 in  !S and  !D, because you wouldn't show only a three card  !D suit in front of six card  !S. Pard continues with relay beta over the gamma response, and now here's the significant difference.

If you are playing as per the website, and if partner has sufficient of the high cards to know that your fifth control has to be the  !H or  !C King, then partner knows that your King must be guarded. Georgi and I do not have that information, for us the King could be a stiff with a small doubleton in the other suit, as above. Can this cost? I think so, I think it's probably possible to construct a hand for Asker such that 6 !S is a good contract with Kx and a singleton in Teller's hand, but not with a stiff King and a small doubleton. I admit this is just gut feeling, I haven't put sufficient thought into this to construct such a hand.

All I can tell you is that I'm not aware of the way that Georgi and I count stiff Kings in relay beta (and a few other places!) ever having cost us.




Hello Brain, 

I looked up the Asking Bid Guidelines for activating Beta's and found this statement for counting singletons:

"Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, we do not count a singleton King as 1 Control unless Partner has shown strength there (eg: an earlier trump ask in that suit) or we know they are strong balanced (and so are likely to have one of the adjoining honours). "

My question is...……………..

Does this statement "or we know they are strong balanced (and so are likely to have on of the adjoining honours" cover your example hand since responder used a "Forcing 1NT" to start the sequence. 

Thanks. 

 7 
 on: August 26, 2018, 11:12:02 PM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by brian_m
My thought was the other possible holding(s) being the singleton King !H.

It would not be counted as a control. And even if you counted an additional 3 HCP at the beginning it would still be a 1 !S Opening.

I originally inferred the  !D as Qxx in showing a 3rd round control and not a doubleton because without the Queen of  !D Opener would be a tidge short in HCP to open 1 !S. But Brian is correct. Take those 2 HCP and split them into two Jacks - one for each black suit


John is also correct, if you're following the system as written. I'd missed this third possibility (stiff King) because this is one of the places where Georgi and I deviate from the notes. It's our opinion that, when responder is strong enough to switch on the asking bids after a 1 !H or 1 !S opener, the odds are in favour of the stiff King being worth something. We feel particularly safe in doing this when opener (teller) has extra trump length, because you're unlikely to be susceptible to a forcing defence if the stiff King falls under the Ace and teller then has to ruff.

I can think of one circumstance (prompted by a recent hand which didn't have a stiff King) where it could possibly come back to bite you. As opener, you hold

 !S AQxxxx
 !H K
 !D AJ10x
 !C xx

You open 1 !S, 1NT from pard, 2 !D from you, partner switches on the asks with 2 !H, you show your  !S HHxxxx. Now partner knows that you're at least 6-4 in  !S and  !D, because you wouldn't show only a three card  !D suit in front of six card  !S. Pard continues with relay beta over the gamma response, and now here's the significant difference.

If you are playing as per the website, and if partner has sufficient of the high cards to know that your fifth control has to be the  !H or  !C King, then partner knows that your King must be guarded. Georgi and I do not have that information, for us the King could be a stiff with a small doubleton in the other suit, as above. Can this cost? I think so, I think it's probably possible to construct a hand for Asker such that 6 !S is a good contract with Kx and a singleton in Teller's hand, but not with a stiff King and a small doubleton. I admit this is just gut feeling, I haven't put sufficient thought into this to construct such a hand.

All I can tell you is that I'm not aware of the way that Georgi and I count stiff Kings in relay beta (and a few other places!) ever having cost us.



 8 
 on: August 26, 2018, 09:24:26 PM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by lute57
My thought was the other possible holding(s) being the singleton King !H.

It would not be counted as a control. And even if you counted an additional 3 HCP at the beginning it would still be a 1 !S Opening.

I originally inferred the  !D as Qxx in showing a 3rd round control and not a doubleton because without the Queen of  !D Opener would be a tidge short in HCP to open 1 !S. But Brian is correct. Take those 2 HCP and split them into two Jacks - one for each black suit

 9 
 on: August 21, 2018, 08:50:33 PM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by brian_m
Well, after a week and no replies, I guess I may as well just post up the answer.

The ambiguity in the hand is based on the 3rd round control shown by the  !D Epsilon. Without a further ask, you don't know whether this is the  !D Q or a doubleton. So, opener's two possible hands are

 !S Qxxxxx
 !H x
 !D Qxx
 !C AKx

(which I think is the hand Roger may have intended, note that opener may have one or both black Jacks, you can't tell from the bidding)

and

 !S QJxxxx
 !H x
 !D xx
 !C AKJx

which is the other possibility. There are those among us who wouldn't insist on having both black Jacks either, but I put them in there for the benefit of those who pay (undue?) regard to HCPs.


Please note I've done this from memory. I THINK I remember the hands correctly,but if I've duplicated a card, well, it happens!

.



 10 
 on: August 14, 2018, 09:36:40 PM 
Started by RogerPfi - Last post by lute57
Thanks Brian, you solved my problem. That is exactly what happened and your work around was spot on. I simply had to use Roger's file/open function and remembered where I stored the downloaded file.

Very nice, Roger. All folks who have been taking Oliver's classes should try it. Not to give anything away, it is one of those hands you could have claimed before the opening lead and told the opponents exactly what was in North's hand EXCEPT here Asker is not the Declarer. So North's bun hole might tighten after South's final bid but once they see South's hand they should be able to claim.

Also, I think I know the second possible hand type consistent with the bidding but I do not want to spoil the fun.

So piglets [gotta get a better name especially for our lady players] have a go. What is the final contract? What is exactly North's hand? And what is a second possible hand holding by North?

John

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