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Author Topic: 001 OVER INTERFERE  (Read 553 times)

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FeaxSA

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001 OVER INTERFERE
« on: May 28, 2018, 06:28:36 AM »

1 !C - (P) - 1NT[ !S]-(2 !S)
Pass = Gamma in  !S
Double = Alpha in  !H
2NT = HOC
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OliverC

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 12:35:16 PM »

Looks right to me...
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Oliver

FeaxSA

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2019, 08:43:44 AM »

How we pushined the ops (playing 2 !S X) .... or with that scenario.... just we cant ?
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brian_m

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 12:28:06 PM »

Spiros, you have an auction of 1 !C-(p)-1NT( !S positive)-(2 !S). Is there a typo there?

If not, then how many times do you expect opponents to overcall a spade positive with a natural 2 !S? And if 2 !S is NOT natural, then opponents aren't going to play there whatever you do...?  ???

But you are right, OCP makes it very difficult to penalise opponents at a low level. I've had this argument with Oliver many times on these forums. An opponent who knows the system should interfere whenever possible to take the maximum amount of bidding room right up to the level at which they know that they can't easily be penalised.

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lute57

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 03:49:14 PM »

IMO, it is highly unlikely you would want to punish the opponent in that auction if the natural 2 !S overcall is legitimate. They are sitting OVER you. You are not sitting OVER them.

Different story if they are deliberating taking advantage of your bidding system and making the overcall with such heinous quality as xxxxx and 0 HCP - maybe the same type of opponents as Brian mentioned?

My advice is not to play against that type of individual. No one wants to play against someone who interferes just for the sake of disruption. Indeed, these are the same types of folk that would play you on-line while having a telephone connection to their partner. If that is their style of play, so be it; but I will not be regarding them as good players - and I do not think you should be forced to modify your bidding system in order to accommodate such miscreants.

John
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brian_m

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 07:07:35 PM »

IMO, it is highly unlikely you would want to punish the opponent in that auction if the natural 2 !S overcall is legitimate. They are sitting OVER you. You are not sitting OVER them.

Different story if they are deliberating taking advantage of your bidding system and making the overcall with such heinous quality as xxxxx and 0 HCP - maybe the same type of opponents as Brian mentioned?

My advice is not to play against that type of individual. No one wants to play against someone who interferes just for the sake of disruption. Indeed, these are the same types of folk that would play you on-line while having a telephone connection to their partner. If that is their style of play, so be it; but I will not be regarding them as good players - and I do not think you should be forced to modify your bidding system in order to accommodate such miscreants.

John

I couldn't possibly disagree more with you, John. Provided it doesn't violate some regulation, e.g. the infamous "Random 1 !S" overcall over a strong 1 !C that shows any 13 cards, you are fully entitled to exploit any weaknesses in your opponents' bidding system. Otherwise you might just as well outlaw all defensive bidding. If I know that opponents can't easily double me for penalties, then my pre-empts become a LOT more aggressive. That's just good bridge, IMHO.

However, the phone connection to your partner is an entirely different matter. That's cheating in its purest form, and can never be acceptable.



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OliverC

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 08:06:23 PM »

I'm not sure that we've ever addressed this exact kind of sequence (eg: 1 !C - 1NT - (2 !S =Nat), or 1 !C - 1 !H - (2 !H =Nat).
  • If Opps' bid is ostensibly natural, then there is a good case for
  • Keeping Pass as Gamma (ie: Opps' bid is an almost certain psyche and Opener has decent support).
  • If Opener has their own long suit elsewhere they want to ask about, they can do so
  • Forget Double being the suit below and make it strictly for penalties with a holding such as Hx. If Opps run to something else we should be well placed to penalise them there as well (If Opener has no long suits of their own, they're likely strong balanced).
  • With a shortage in Partner's suit we can leave 2NT as being HoC to see if Partner has any more of their suit or a second suit to show and fall back on 3NT if they're semi-balanced.
On the other hand, I must confess I don't think I have ever [in over 40 years of playing Precision] seen this kind of sequence at the table where Opps have overcalled a suit positive with a genuine bid of the same suit, so maybe John is right and making any changes to accommodate such an unlikely sequence is a waste of effort.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 08:09:22 PM by OliverC »
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Oliver

brian_m

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 08:51:50 PM »

I'm in total agreement with Oliver, and you can add my 40 years of Precision to his, I can't recall opponents who ever made such a bid (and it's so fantastically unlikely that I think it would have stuck in my memory). The idea of changing the methods of dealing with intervention to cope with an overcall showing the same suit is simply a non-starter on  grounds of frequency.

Such discussions as I had with Oliver on these forums were focused on more likely sequences, e.g. 1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S). I still feel that OCP tends too much towards trying to bid rather than penalising intervention, but I accept that I've done my best to push that viewpoint yet failed to convince Oliver.


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Jimmy

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2019, 03:33:11 AM »

I'm in total agreement with Oliver, and you can add my 40 years of Precision to his, I can't recall opponents who ever made such a bid (and it's so fantastically unlikely that I think it would have stuck in my memory). The idea of changing the methods of dealing with intervention to cope with an overcall showing the same suit is simply a non-starter on  grounds of frequency.

Such discussions as I had with Oliver on these forums were focused on more likely sequences, e.g. 1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S). I still feel that OCP tends too much towards trying to bid rather than penalising intervention, but I accept that I've done my best to push that viewpoint yet failed to convince Oliver.

Hi,  really like these questions and discussions.  However, they do test my lack of knowledge about the OCP System.  With that said,  I have two questions:

1.  Is the 2NT (HOC) bid mostly effective in auctions without interference? 

2.  Can the interference sequence be modified so that the 2NT bid is used for the asking bid and the double (X) is penalty.  Seems like the system only loses one level of bidding if the 2NT (normally HOC) is changed to 2NT (asking) for 1 !C - Positive Response - Interference. 

Thanks,  Jim
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brian_m

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2019, 06:11:51 AM »

I'm in total agreement with Oliver, and you can add my 40 years of Precision to his, I can't recall opponents who ever made such a bid (and it's so fantastically unlikely that I think it would have stuck in my memory). The idea of changing the methods of dealing with intervention to cope with an overcall showing the same suit is simply a non-starter on  grounds of frequency.

Such discussions as I had with Oliver on these forums were focused on more likely sequences, e.g. 1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S). I still feel that OCP tends too much towards trying to bid rather than penalising intervention, but I accept that I've done my best to push that viewpoint yet failed to convince Oliver.

Hi,  really like these questions and discussions.  However, they do test my lack of knowledge about the OCP System.  With that said,  I have two questions:

1.  Is the 2NT (HOC) bid mostly effective in auctions without interference? 

2.  Can the interference sequence be modified so that the 2NT bid is used for the asking bid and the double (X) is penalty.  Seems like the system only loses one level of bidding if the 2NT (normally HOC) is changed to 2NT (asking) for 1 !C - Positive Response - Interference. 

Thanks,  Jim

HoC is absolutely essential to the system, Jim. The reason is that, if you look at the responses to the trump asking bids when responder is NOT 4441 (so exclude Eta), they fairly clearly assume that asker (or responder, if it's gamma) has at least 5 cards in the suit. You can tell this from the level of the responses which agree trumps. Unless you really like playing Moysian fits, HoC is the way to go if you need to look for 4-4 fits. So the answer to question 2 is that yes, it could, but in order to do so you need to come up with an alternative way for opener to bid a balanced hand when responder is also balanced, or when opener is 4432 or even 4441 (though opener must have a powerhouse, 24+, if 4441) with the shortage in the suit of responder's positive. I put a lot of thought into trying to give opener a penalty double when opps interfere, and it's not easy.

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Jimmy

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2019, 11:55:24 PM »

m
[/quote]

HoC is absolutely essential to the system, Jim. The reason is that, if you look at the responses to the trump asking bids when responder is NOT 4441 (so exclude Eta), they fairly clearly assume that asker (or responder, if it's gamma) has at least 5 cards in the suit. You can tell this from the level of the responses which agree trumps. Unless you really like playing Moysian fits, HoC is the way to go if you need to look for 4-4 fits. So the answer to question 2 is that yes, it could, but in order to do so you need to come up with an alternative way for opener to bid a balanced hand when responder is also balanced, or when opener is 4432 or even 4441 (though opener must have a powerhouse, 24+, if 4441) with the shortage in the suit of responder's positive. I put a lot of thought into trying to give opener a penalty double when opps interfere, and it's not easy.


[/quote]

Got it,  thanks.   Just thought I would ask.   A lot of opponents think they can freely enter the Strong Club auctions at the lower level  without penalty.  There must be some dual option bid.   Have you considered this sequence:
pass is gamma
double shows balanced hand and is either penalty or HoC (responder now knows you are balanced and decides on HoC or penalty).
2NT is suit below
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brian_m

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2019, 02:19:49 AM »

m

HoC is absolutely essential to the system, Jim. The reason is that, if you look at the responses to the trump asking bids when responder is NOT 4441 (so exclude Eta), they fairly clearly assume that asker (or responder, if it's gamma) has at least 5 cards in the suit. You can tell this from the level of the responses which agree trumps. Unless you really like playing Moysian fits, HoC is the way to go if you need to look for 4-4 fits. So the answer to question 2 is that yes, it could, but in order to do so you need to come up with an alternative way for opener to bid a balanced hand when responder is also balanced, or when opener is 4432 or even 4441 (though opener must have a powerhouse, 24+, if 4441) with the shortage in the suit of responder's positive. I put a lot of thought into trying to give opener a penalty double when opps interfere, and it's not easy.


[/quote]

Got it,  thanks.   Just thought I would ask.   A lot of opponents think they can freely enter the Strong Club auctions at the lower level  without penalty.  There must be some dual option bid.   Have you considered this sequence:
pass is gamma
double shows balanced hand and is either penalty or HoC (responder now knows you are balanced and decides on HoC or penalty).
2NT is suit below
[/quote]

The problem with that idea is that opener is unlimited, and you're making the weaker hand decide on whether to look for 4-4 fits or play for penalties. How does responder know whether opener has a minimum 16 HCP balanced or is very much stronger? Responder can't know whether to assess the possible penalty against a game our way or a slam our way. Don't let me discourage you from thinking of ideas, Jim, but there's been an awful lot have been tried over the years, and nobody has yet come up with a foolproof way of handling pre-emption - nobody would do it if they had!

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Jimmy

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2019, 03:45:55 AM »

Brian,  would like to take that theory one more step.   Using this example....1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S)

Penalty System with interference and balanced hands with no trump support for partners bid. 

pass is gamma
double is either penalty or HoC  (openers hand is balanced good strength, medium strength TBD (16-21), no more than 2 !H's, )
2NT is alpha in suit below
3NT balanced strong strength, strength TBD (22+) and again no more than 2 !H's, possible slam  (can use stayman ?)

Note:   Without interference than 2NT would be normal HoC
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FeaxSA

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2019, 09:56:57 AM »

mistakes always is made......
and of course there are some players that never ask over a bid even if ops knock down (want to explain) because they believe that may ops ''wake up'' from a missunderstand.........
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brian_m

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Re: 001 OVER INTERFERE
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2019, 09:16:58 PM »

Brian,  would like to take that theory one more step.   Using this example....1 !C-(p)-1 !H-(2 !S)

Penalty System with interference and balanced hands with no trump support for partners bid. 

pass is gamma
double is either penalty or HoC  (openers hand is balanced good strength, medium strength TBD (16-21), no more than 2 !H's, )
2NT is alpha in suit below
3NT balanced strong strength, strength TBD (22+) and again no more than 2 !H's, possible slam  (can use stayman ?)

Note:   Without interference than 2NT would be normal HoC


I still don't really like it, Jim, as you're making responder guess opener's hand. Either/or doubles are a pet hate of mine if it means a guess of whether to pass it out or not. The cynic in me calls them "blame transfer doubles", in other words you can double on a wide range of hands and then blame partner when they guess wrong. Two-way doubles are fine if they're forcing in any event, or if the action taken depends on the responder's own hand rather than the doubler's hand.

I'm not saying that your scheme is unplayable, just that I personally don't like it.



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