Author Topic: Another Interesting Bidding Challange  (Read 4821 times)

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Offline Jimmy

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Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« on: July 13, 2018, 07:56:31 PM »
Picked up this hand yesterday.  Ended up in 6  !S, making 7 when the  !H's were split 2-2. 

How does OCP approach this beauty?

Dealer North
Both Vul

North

 !S QJ10983
 !H A1074
 !D AQ2
 !C

South

 !S AK54
 !H KJ963
 !D
 !C QJ102
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 10:29:54 PM by Jimmy »

Offline lute57

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Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 05:39:39 AM »
These hands are a delight. Nice going to get to slam.

Maybe others might approach this differently but my bidding would be as follows:
1 !S-1NT
I plan on a Gamma in  !S. IMO this hand is too strong for Exclusion Beta [10-12 HCP more appropriate].
2 !H-3 !C [Gamma in  !S]
Wow, Two fits with at least 9-cards in each fit [Responder also has the option of bidding 3 !D (gamma in  !H)]
4 !C [Hxxxxx]-4 !D [Relay Beta]
4NT [4 controls]-?
At this point, Asker knows Teller has either AA or AKK for controls. If Asker ponders it, they can rule-out AKK because in that case the two Kings would have to be in the Minor suits and Teller has already shown 10-cards in the Majors [6 in  !S and at least 4 in  !H] leaving only 3-cards at most for the Minors. If Teller had both Minor suit Kings one would have to be a singleton - a big no-no in Beta responding. So you can narrow Teller's controls to AA but where do they reside? IMO Asker must ask in clubs simply because they are possibly facing two quick losers there. So, continuing the sequence:
4NT [4 controls]-5 !C
6 !C [first-round control]- 6 !S

Unfortunately we are out of space and really can't assess whether Teller's first round control in  !C is either a Void or Axx [both are possibilities]. Some gambling folks might think it can't be Axx because we would be double void in Diamonds! and surely the opponents would have pipped up if that were the case. On that premise, some OCP practitioners might have pushed to 7 !S but do not include me in there.


John



Offline brian_m

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Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 01:08:04 PM »
On that premise, some OCP practitioners might have pushed to 7 !S but do not include me in there.

John

Me neither! Nine cards and you need to find the Queen to make is fair game for a small slam, but it's not good enough odds for a grand slam. Bidding 7 of a major on Jimmy's hand will be a net loser in the long run.

Please note that the responses I give are based on my current understanding of the system, and I've checked the website if in any doubt. I didn't attend Oliver's classes until 2021-22, so if Oliver has said anything different in his lessons in earlier years, I don't know about it!

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 08:21:14 PM »
Hi Guys, 

Thanks for the responses.   John,  have a question for you. 

In your response you used the forcing one NT bid with opener bidding 2H and responder now bidding 3C gamma. 

How does the bidding proceed if opener bids 3S showing max with 6 spades ( in effect, hiding the heart fit)? 

1 !S - 1NT
3 !S

Offline brian_m

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Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 09:02:55 PM »
Hi Guys, 

Thanks for the responses.   John,  have a question for you. 

In your response you used the forcing one NT bid with opener bidding 2H and responder now bidding 3C gamma. 

How does the bidding proceed if opener bids 3S showing max with 6 spades ( in effect, hiding the heart fit)? 

1 !S - 1NT
3 !S

I'll let John wrestle with the sequences, but I have to say that if the 3 !S rebid results in your missing the slam, I would put the blame 100% on opener, and I don't need to see the rest of the sequence to say that!  ::)

IMO, at least, the only excuse for suppressing the  !H suit is if it's abysmally weak, and by that I mean something like 6xxx, not A10xx. If your spades are long enough in a maximum hand that you feel you have to hide a decent  !H suit to bid 3 !S, then you should probably have promoted the hand to 1 !C in the first place.

Just bid 2 !H. If responder passes this then it's probable that 1NT was a desperation measure on a weak 0=4=4=5 or something close to it, and 2 !H is probably a much better contract than 3 !S. If responder intends a rebid, then you'll be much better placed when you have some idea of what responder has, and if responder wants to take control and go into the strong sequences, then you've made a much better start on describing your hand.

Please note that the responses I give are based on my current understanding of the system, and I've checked the website if in any doubt. I didn't attend Oliver's classes until 2021-22, so if Oliver has said anything different in his lessons in earlier years, I don't know about it!

Offline lute57

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Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 03:20:25 AM »
Quote
1 !S  - 1NT
3 !S

In OCP F1NT, the cheapest unbid suit is always Gamma in Opener's Opening Major. That would be 4 !C here.

In my experience, OCP F1NT is significantly different than normal F1NT and many new OCP practitioner's do not really grasp this difference. For one, you will not be bidding F1NT with a weak, long suit of your own unless you are a passed-hand Responder. The other has to do with the PRIORITY of Opener's rebids. Showing a 4-card suit has priority over showing a 6-card suit.

Flip Opener's red suits and give Opener AT74 in  !D - Opener will bid 2 !D not 3 !S.

Check Oliver's Web Notes under F1NT (see either 1 !H Opening or 1 !S Opening for finding the scoop on F1NT).

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Another Interesting Bidding Challange
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2018, 02:21:33 PM »
Thanks,   Did not see where it said the "cheapest unbid suit was gamma" for responder.   But,  did find it.

Slam Exploration
With the 16+ hands (with or without Spade support), Responder can either bid naturally or, if Asking Bids are in use, has the option to embark on an Asking Bid sequence. With (3) above, over Opener's rebid...

    A bid of the cheapest new suit over Opener's Rebid is Gamma in Spades and Asking Bids are now established.
    eg: 1♠ - 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ is Gamma in Spades

If Opener has shown a second suit, then a relay in the 2nd-cheapest new suit is Gamma in Opener's second suit.
eg: 1♠ - 1NT - 2♦ - 3♣ is Gamma in Diamonds



Also, I did check the guidelines and that is why I came up with the question.  The guidelines say order of preference.....

Opener's Rebid
Over the Forcing No Trump Opener clarifies his holding along the following lines (items are in order of preference):-

 1.   Rebids a second 4-card or longer suit, if held. A jump rebid in another suit promises 5-5 at least and a maximum.
 2.   Rebids a 6-card or a very strong 5-card Spade suit . A jump rebid shows a maximum with at least a 6-card Spade suit.
 3.   With any 5332 shape, Opener rebids his cheapest 3-card Minor suit.
 4.   Opener rebids 2NT with a setup 6-card suit (Originally this showed a hand missing only 1 of the top 4 honours, but now we treat it as promising the top three, so a minimum holding of AKQxxx) in an otherwise balanced hand that is upper-range (rare because such hands often upgraded to 1♣). There is a special scale for Gamma in these sequences that relates solely to the length of Opener's suit.

Thanks again,  Jim