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Author Topic: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system  (Read 7110 times)

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Marcus7

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[Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« on: April 22, 2019, 08:00:43 AM »

I have a question about a 1D sequence, if you open no-Vul 1D as 13-15 nt hand, p responds 1H and you have 4spades (without high honours) do you respond 1S or 1NT? Here is the full hand:
 !S J987
 !H K10
 !D QJ10
 !C AK102
Thanks for answers!
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OliverC

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2019, 08:12:22 PM »

Rebid 1 !S 20 times out of 10:
(1) It's more constructive
(2) The priority in your bidding should be to find "somewhere else" to play. Finding a Major suit fit is the No 1 priority and opting to play in NT's in the absence of a Major fit is a close second.
(3) Depending on how the subsequent bidding goes, partner will realise that you may be 13-15 balanced, even when you've rebid 1 !S. Rebidding 1NT, however, categorically denies having 4-card Spades and nothing you do subsequently would ever convince an OCP Partner that you have a 4th Spade.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 08:14:35 PM by OliverC »
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Oliver

lute57

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2019, 10:30:05 PM »

Welcome to the Forum Marcus.

Excellent discussion question to boot.

Since Oliver is a world-class player and originator of the system, it is hard to disagree with him - especially when he emphatically puts it as "rebid 1 !S 20 times out of 10!"  :)

However, I prefer bidding 1NT. IMO, the problem with the 1 !D Opening is its nebulous nature. In that regard, I think Opener's first duty should be to show partner his true hand type. IMO, bidding 1NT makes it easier for Responder to take appropriate action - bidding 1 !S still leaves the waters muddy.

That said, I am nowhere near the caliber of player as Oliver. Actually, I am your ordinary simple patzer - who frequently goofs on his Declarer play and quite a bit more on his defensive play. However, I do let my partner know that in the 1 !D-1 !H-1NT sequence, my 1NT bid does not deny a 4-card  !S suit.

John
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brian_m

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2019, 12:43:18 AM »

I would quibble with Oliver's answer - I think 20 times out of 10 is an underestimate!  ;)

Seriously, John, I think it's not only your partner you need to tell about this, I think your 1NT rebid becomes alertable (certainly under BBO regulations, at least) if you say that you're playing Precision but are going to bypass a 4-card major.

You're also going to need to add something like Checkback to the system in order to look for a bypassed 4-4  !S fit.

I understand your point about wanting to show the balanced hand, but I really do think you're creating more problems than you're solving.

And what happens if your partner has 4=4=1=4 or 3=4=1=5 shape with insufficient HCP for an initial 2 !C response? Now pard is well and truly stuffed if 2 !C is Checkback - and particularly if your 1NT rebid is 11-12, your probably decent score on 4=4=1=4 is likely to change to a significant minus.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 10:38:03 PM by brian_m »
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Please note that the responses I give are based on my current understanding of the system, and I've checked the website if in any doubt. I've never attended Oliver's classes until this year, so if Oliver has said anything different in his lessons in earlier years, I don't know about it!

OliverC

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 07:51:47 AM »

1 !D - 1 !H - 1NT with 4-card Spades...
...C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le Precision! :)

I always say that partnership agreement is king, and it's true. OCP is a system you can tweak to your heart's content, but there are some fundamental things about Precision, and particularly about OCP, that you change at your peril.

The simple 1 !D responses are geared to make it really hard to miss a 4-4 (or even a viable 4-3) Major fit when we're not strong enough to play beyond the 2-level (which is quite a lot of the time, let's face it).

One of the major criticisms of the Complex 1 !D is that it can make it much harder to find a 4-4 Major fit at a low level. Jason and I accepted that (albeit with some reluctance) because of it's perceived advantages in some other areas, but in reality there isn't much to choose between the Simple 1 !D and the Complex 1 !D .

Rebidding 1 !S on that hand does not preclude playing the hand in 1NT, but rebidding 1NT does make it almost impossible to find a 4-4 or 4-3 Spade contract when partner is fundamentally weak.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 08:10:21 AM by OliverC »
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brian_m

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 11:12:04 AM »


The simple 1 !D responses are geared to make it really hard to miss a 4-4 (or even a viable 4-3) Major fit when we're not strong enough to play beyond the 2-level (which is quite a lot of the time, let's face it).

If I may be forgiven a small amount of advertising, if you want to be sure of finding your major fits and greatly reduce the chances of playing in some silly  !D contracts, then in 3rd and 4th seats I really do recommend that you give the 1 !D/1NT scheme from my old system a try. It's in the 'alternative treatments' forum. You should ONLY use this when responder is a passed hand, and cannot have a GF response. Oliver doesn't like the scheme because it means you give up on the pre-emptive 1NT opener (all 11-15 balanced hands are opened 1 !D, 1NT is reserved for hands with genuine  !D) and I absolutely accept that he has a point, but having played the scheme for something in excess of 30 years, I'm firmly convinced that it's a net positive. I did have a scheme for using those NF must-show-a-4CM-even-with-0-HCP responses with an unpassed responder, but I absolutely accept OCP's superiority (yes, both the simple and the complex systems) when responder is unlimited.


One of the major criticisms of the Complex 1 !D is that it can make it much harder to find a 4-4 Major fit at a low level. Jason and I accepted that (albeit with some reluctance) because of it's perceived advantages in some other areas, but in reality there isn't much to choose between the Simple 1 !D and the Complex 1 !D .


I think I'm correct in saying that, apart from Oliver, I'm probably the one in this group with the greatest experience with the Complex 1 !D, and Oliver is, of course, absolutely correct about the problems. All that I want to add, having now had some experience with the Simple 1 !D, is that my opinion is that in playing the Complex 1 !D, you sacrifice something on the weaker part scores in exchange for significant improvements on invitational and GF hands (the Complex 1 !D is also a much greater load on the memory!). Personally, I think that's a worthwhile exchange.


« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 11:14:49 AM by brian_m »
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Please note that the responses I give are based on my current understanding of the system, and I've checked the website if in any doubt. I've never attended Oliver's classes until this year, so if Oliver has said anything different in his lessons in earlier years, I don't know about it!

FeaxSA

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 08:40:43 AM »

I totally disagree with you John and and im in the same wave with Oliver. Just think John that p for many reasons dont want to play 1NT but he want to play 1!S (he can pass) even in a Moysian fit..........
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lute57

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 02:52:49 PM »

For some dumb reason, I was thinking the auction as 1 !D-(1 !H)-P-(P)-? Don't ask me why, because after rereading it, Marcus was clear as the dickens it ran as 1 !D-(P)-1 !H-(P)-?  :-[ Maybe, playing too much rugby as a loosehead prop at age 60+ is having an affect on my big cranium.  :o

Anyway, if the auction was different - such as 1 !D-(1 !H)-P-(P)-? - are we still all going with 1 !S as rebid? Or X (in case of a trap pass by partner)? Or 1NT to clarify hand type?
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brian_m

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 03:16:02 PM »

Assuming that partner would make a negative double of the 1 !H overcall with 4 card  !S unless horribly weak, there's no way I'm bidding 1 !S on  !S J987 - if we don't end up buying the hand, the last thing I want is a  !S lead! Cases could be made for 1NT, double and even a pass, depending on vulnerability, what you know of your partner's style and probably even the day of the week, but (at least for me) 1 !S isn't even on the list of possibilities. Now, if you were to take that hand and swap the two black suits, so that I have  !S AK102 and  !C J987, now 1 !S would be my choice.

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Please note that the responses I give are based on my current understanding of the system, and I've checked the website if in any doubt. I've never attended Oliver's classes until this year, so if Oliver has said anything different in his lessons in earlier years, I don't know about it!

Jimmy

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2019, 02:54:22 AM »

Rebid 1 !S 20 times out of 10:
(1) It's more constructive
(2) The priority in your bidding should be to find "somewhere else" to play. Finding a Major suit fit is the No 1 priority and opting to play in NT's in the absence of a Major fit is a close second.
(3) Depending on how the subsequent bidding goes, partner will realise that you may be 13-15 balanced, even when you've rebid 1 !S . Rebidding 1NT, however, categorically denies having 4-card Spades and nothing you do subsequently would ever convince an OCP Partner that you have a 4th Spade.


I would quibble with Oliver's answer - I think 20 times out of 10 is an underestimate!  ;)

I agree with both Oliver and Brian's comments.  In the example given, IMO opener should definitely bid 1 !S for a variety of reasons:

1.  It is the general system rule (unless modified by partnership).
2.  The 1 !S bid should still be considered one round forcing. 
3.  Opener can still have up to 15 HCP and in this example has 14 HCP with 3-10's, a QJ10 + J987 combos. 
4.  Responder has shown 8+ HCP with the 1 !H response and also can still have up to 15 HCP's.
5.  The 1 !S bid allows responder to show his values/distribution. 
6.  And 1NT by opener sort of indicates a minimum hand.   

JMO,  Jim
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brian_m

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2019, 06:23:47 AM »

Rebid 1 !S 20 times out of 10:
(1) It's more constructive
(2) The priority in your bidding should be to find "somewhere else" to play. Finding a Major suit fit is the No 1 priority and opting to play in NT's in the absence of a Major fit is a close second.
(3) Depending on how the subsequent bidding goes, partner will realise that you may be 13-15 balanced, even when you've rebid 1 !S . Rebidding 1NT, however, categorically denies having 4-card Spades and nothing you do subsequently would ever convince an OCP Partner that you have a 4th Spade.


I would quibble with Oliver's answer - I think 20 times out of 10 is an underestimate!  ;)

I agree with both Oliver and Brian's comments.  In the example given, IMO opener should definitely bid 1 !S for a variety of reasons:

1.  It is the general system rule (unless modified by partnership).
2.  The 1 !S bid should still be considered one round forcing. 
3.  Opener can still have up to 15 HCP and in this example has 14 HCP with 3-10's, a QJ10 + J987 combos. 
4.  Responder has shown 8+ HCP with the 1 !H response and also can still have up to 15 HCP's.
5.  The 1 !S bid allows responder to show his values/distribution. 
6.  And 1NT by opener sort of indicates a minimum hand.   

JMO,  Jim

I disagree with a couple of those points, Jim.

Point 2) I think 1 !S is passable if responder is dead minimum, or even slightly sub-minimum (responder scraped the barrel for a 1 !H response because they were short in  !D and wanted to avoid the possibility of being passed out in 1 !D if opener was short. Give me  !S Kxx   !H QJ10x   !D xx   !C Qxxx. If it goes 1 !D-1 !H-1 !S, I'm passing 1 !S without a moment's thought.

Point 6) Whether opener is maximum or minimum depends on vulnerability, to a large extent. What 1NT indicates (as well as denying 4-card  !S) is a balanced hand of the wrong range to have opened 1NT. If we are NV, and the mini 1NT is in force, then 1 !D-1 !H-1NT is 13-15.


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Please note that the responses I give are based on my current understanding of the system, and I've checked the website if in any doubt. I've never attended Oliver's classes until this year, so if Oliver has said anything different in his lessons in earlier years, I don't know about it!

OliverC

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2019, 08:40:16 PM »

1 !D - 1 !H - 1 !S is eminently, 100% and utterly passable, as Brian says. Opener has limited their hand by Opening 1 !D. Nothing they bid is forcing in any subsequent [natural] sequence, unless a forcing sequence is initiated by Responder.


This 1 !D - 2 !C - 2 !H is forcing, not because 2 !H is forcing, but because 2 !C is effectively forcing to 2NT and now Opener has reversed into 2 !H.


Similarly 1 !D - 1 !H - 2 !C - 2 !S - 3 !D is forcing, but only because the 2 !S reverse is 100% GF.


Bottom line is that it is effectively impossible for an intermediate Opener to initiate a forcing sequence. The impetus for that almost always comes from Responder. The only real exceptions would be splinters by Opener (eg: 1 !D - 2 !C - 3 !H, which would be violently agreeing Clubs and showing a Spade shortage).
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Jimmy

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2019, 01:49:17 AM »

1 !D - 1 !H - 1 !S is eminently, 100% and utterly passable, as Brian says. Opener has limited their hand by Opening 1 !D. Nothing they bid is forcing in any subsequent [natural] sequence, unless a forcing sequence is initiated by Responder.


This 1 !D - 2 !C - 2 !H is forcing, not because 2 !H is forcing, but because 2 !C is effectively forcing to 2NT and now Opener has reversed into 2 !H.


Similarly 1 !D - 1 !H - 2 !C - 2 !S - 3 !D is forcing, but only because the 2 !S reverse is 100% GF.


Bottom line is that it is effectively impossible for an intermediate Opener to initiate a forcing sequence. The impetus for that almost always comes from Responder. The only real exceptions would be splinters by Opener (eg: 1 !D - 2 !C - 3 !H, which would be violently agreeing Clubs and showing a Spade shortage).

OK,  I can definitely deal with the 1 !D-1 !H-1 !S as passable considering responder is on a dead minimum of 8 (which Brian has constructed), maybe 9 HCP with very poor distribution.  Not very likely or responder would have passed the 1 !D.  "We" have learned not to bid over 1 !D unless we have a good 8 or 8+ HCP's.   This requirement is a partnership agreement.  But,  based on past experience, I would recommend that it be solid 8 or 8+ to respond to the 1 !D.  JMO

 !S J987
 !H K10
 !D QJ10
 !C AK102

 !S Kxx   
 !H QJ10x   
 !D xx   
 !C Qxxx

In this discussion the original hand and Brians hand are shown above.  At worst 1NT would be down at most 2.  If doubled, the contract could easily be in 2 !C.  Not sure how 1 !S would end up.   Losers on AK !D, A !H, likely a  !C ruff.  Then the  !S's.

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brian_m

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2019, 05:44:32 AM »

1 !D - 1 !H - 1 !S is eminently, 100% and utterly passable, as Brian says. Opener has limited their hand by Opening 1 !D. Nothing they bid is forcing in any subsequent [natural] sequence, unless a forcing sequence is initiated by Responder.


This 1 !D - 2 !C - 2 !H is forcing, not because 2 !H is forcing, but because 2 !C is effectively forcing to 2NT and now Opener has reversed into 2 !H.


Similarly 1 !D - 1 !H - 2 !C - 2 !S - 3 !D is forcing, but only because the 2 !S reverse is 100% GF.


Bottom line is that it is effectively impossible for an intermediate Opener to initiate a forcing sequence. The impetus for that almost always comes from Responder. The only real exceptions would be splinters by Opener (eg: 1 !D - 2 !C - 3 !H, which would be violently agreeing Clubs and showing a Spade shortage).

OK,  I can definitely deal with the 1 !D-1 !H-1 !S as passable considering responder is on a dead minimum of 8 (which Brian has constructed), maybe 9 HCP with very poor distribution.  Not very likely or responder would have passed the 1 !D.  "We" have learned not to bid over 1 !D unless we have a good 8 or 8+ HCP's.   This requirement is a partnership agreement.  But,  based on past experience, I would recommend that it be solid 8 or 8+ to respond to the 1 !D.  JMO

 !S J987
 !H K10
 !D QJ10
 !C AK102

 !S Kxx   
 !H QJ10x   
 !D xx   
 !C Qxxx

In this discussion the original hand and Brians hand are shown above.  At worst 1NT would be down at most 2.  If doubled, the contract could easily be in 2 !C.  Not sure how 1 !S would end up.   Losers on AK !D, A !H, likely a  !C ruff.  Then the  !S's.

Well, Jim, your opinion and my experience differ is all I can say. Especially if we are at adverse vulnerability and playing opponents who understand Precision, I will shade a 1 !H bid rather than risk a silly  !D contract.

Give me  !S Qxxx  !H Qxxx   !D x   !C Qxxx and I am going to bid 1 !H over 1 !D, and then pass opener's rebid, all day every day. Yes, sometimes I will end up in 2 !D rather than 1 !D, but when I do, opener will have a genuine  !D suit, and I will NOT be playing in 1 !D on a combined 3-card trump suit!

This may be (mildly) anti-system as far as OCP is concerned. I don't care. What I do care about is not going down -300 or more against a part score when opponents with a genuine  !D suit know enough to pass us out in 1 !D. And yes, for avoidance of doubt, I do alert 1 !H as "may be shaded if I hate  !D").








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Please note that the responses I give are based on my current understanding of the system, and I've checked the website if in any doubt. I've never attended Oliver's classes until this year, so if Oliver has said anything different in his lessons in earlier years, I don't know about it!

OliverC

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Re: [Bidding problem] OCP simple system
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2019, 08:19:24 AM »

Anti-system or not, Brian, it's just plain common-sense. I do exactly the same with that hand type. The fundamental point here is that if Opener has shown an intermediate hand, the basic principal is that they cannot initiate a game-forcing sequence and in most instances cannot initiate any kind of forcing sequence except maybe an occasional bid that is forcing for 1 round (eg: new suit at the 3-level), but the likelyhood is that even there the whole sequence will probably be forcing because of a bid that Responder has made.


Yes, Jimmy, Responder (and Opener) should keep the bidding open if they think their hand warrants it, but that's a million miles away from the sequence being forcing.
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