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Author Topic: MOTOR and Lebensohl Nuances  (Read 977 times)

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lute57

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MOTOR and Lebensohl Nuances
« on: May 09, 2019, 08:16:57 PM »

(1) 1 !S-(X)-2 !C[transfer]-(P)-2 !D-(P)-2NT in this sequence what is the meaning of 2NT?

(2) 1 !S-(X)-2 !C[transfer]-(P)-2 !D-(P)-3NT in this sequence what is the meaning of 3NT?

(3) 1 !S-(X)-2 !C[transfer]-(P)-2 !D-(2 !H)-2NT in this sequence what is the meaning of 2NT?

(4) 1 !S-(X)-2 !C[transfer]-(P)-2 !D-(2 !H)-3NT in this sequence what is the meaning of 3NT?

John

(p.s. picking up where Brother Nuri left off - thank you for the inspiration)
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OliverC

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Re: MOTOR and Lebensohl Nuances
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 07:37:58 AM »

(3) and (4) are easy in the sense that they are "normal" Leb sequences. 2NT is Leb and 3NT is "fast", and therefore lacking a Heart Stop and presumably with good long Diamonds.


It's (1) and (2), particularly (1), that are a bit more interesting to me. I know what I've written on the MOTOR sections, but...


I wonder if there really is much point in either of them being natural in any way at green vs red, especially (2), because Responder would have a fairly obvious Redouble over 1 !S - (X) - ??. I can't see much sense in (1) being Leb either, because MOTOR already gives us so many different ways of expressing different hand-types. Even if Responder has a Spade shortage here, a Redouble seems very attractive once Responder is 11-12 (let alone 13+) and if the Spade split is bad, the opposing Spade length will be underneath Opener, which is probably good for us.


At red vs green, natural and invitational, or natural and GF makes perfect sense but I do now wonder whether it's worth reconsidering their meaning at favourable vulnerability.


I'd be interested to hear other people's view on this.
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brian_m

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Re: MOTOR and Lebensohl Nuances
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 12:07:32 PM »

(3) and (4) are easy in the sense that they are "normal" Leb sequences. 2NT is Leb and 3NT is "fast", and therefore lacking a Heart Stop and presumably with good long Diamonds.


It's (1) and (2), particularly (1), that are a bit more interesting to me. I know what I've written on the MOTOR sections, but...


I wonder if there really is much point in either of them being natural in any way at green vs red, especially (2), because Responder would have a fairly obvious Redouble over 1 !S - (X) - ??. I can't see much sense in (1) being Leb either, because MOTOR already gives us so many different ways of expressing different hand-types. Even if Responder has a Spade shortage here, a Redouble seems very attractive once Responder is 11-12 (let alone 13+) and if the Spade split is bad, the opposing Spade length will be underneath Opener, which is probably good for us.


At red vs green, natural and invitational, or natural and GF makes perfect sense but I do now wonder whether it's worth reconsidering their meaning at favourable vulnerability.


I'd be interested to hear other people's view on this.

There seems to be one hand type which it's a little awkward to bid after opponents double - particularly if we're at favourable, as you say. The redouble is supposed to have secondary support for opener's major (the notes say Hx) but the problem would arise with 4441 shape short in opener's major. In John's sequences 1) and 2), we have already taken the decision not to try to extract a penalty from opponents by using MOTOR. I would wonder whether we could remove the 'secondary support' requirement from the redouble and make it penalty-hunting with no guarantee of anything in partner's suit, and use the MOTOR-then-NT sequence to show some support but trumps not good enough for one of the limit raise sequences.

This isn't to say that a redouble denies support for opener's major, just that responder thinks we will be better off looking for that penalty.



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OliverC

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Re: MOTOR and Lebensohl Nuances
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2019, 11:59:43 PM »

I wouldn't say it's a "requirement", even now. The idea behind the suggested holding for a redouble is that a 6-1 or 7-0 opposing trump split might cause opener some problems in 1MXX even if we definitely hold the balance of the HCP and the opposing long trumps are under Declarer. Obviously Responder won't be better then Hx in Opener's Major, but we also want to be sure that 1MXX is going to make. :)
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brian_m

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Re: MOTOR and Lebensohl Nuances
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2019, 01:18:40 AM »

I wouldn't say it's a "requirement", even now. The idea behind the suggested holding for a redouble is that a 6-1 or 7-0 opposing trump split might cause opener some problems in 1MXX even if we definitely hold the balance of the HCP and the opposing long trumps are under Declarer. Obviously Responder won't be better then Hx in Opener's Major, but we also want to be sure that 1MXX is going to make. :)

I take your point, but there's still the question of how to handle one of those inconvenient decent hands where responder has one or even none of opener's major. 1 !S-(dbl)- and you're looking at  something like   !S void   !H Axxx   !D KJxx   !C KJxxx  Not a common holding, I grant you, but if  !S Hx or even  !S xx is only a suggestion rather than a requirement, then this one could go seriously wrong.

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